Street Fighter: Get Hype? GTFO.
My name is Ryan Truman, also known in many fighting game communities as Kurai Ryu. I hope to use this medium to educate and inspire fighting game players across the country, perhaps internationally, to take the next step in their fighting game careers, and learn how to play Tekken right. In order to do so, we need to take a look at the competition – the most popular of which is Street Fighter IV. I will do my best to observe this topic objectively. In the end, you may even be able to use SFIV as not just another fighting game, but a stepping stone into the 3d fighting game world.
Let it be known that this is the first and only time I will be comparing any two games to each other preemptively on this site. This is my rant on Street Fighter. Check this out: I have been playing fighting games since before I can even remember – wait, no I can remember. I had the option when I was in elementary school of picking up Vectorman or Super SFII for SNES at the local retail store, and I opted for Street Fighter. This may or may not have been a pivotal moment in my fighting game career. I got sucked into the game immediately, even though I was playing on pad etc. I could do hadouken, tatsumaki, and every now and then even scrub out a shoryu. I liked the game because it seemed pretty easy to me at the time. I will reflect upon this notion later.
Moving on, point is: I’ve been playing a long time, and they’ve always been my favorite games. Now, if anyone’s going to hate for this little rant of mine, so be it, but know that I love all fighting games (for the most part) and I mean everything I say sincerely, so hear me out.
Street Fighter is mad easy – especially Street Fighter 4. Oh snap, provocative material, eh? Yeah I figured. Why is it easy? Let’s break it down:
- Lack of versatility in the move list.
- Over-usefulness of special moves.
- Panic Moves/Get out of Jail Free Cards. AKA the EX cancel system.
- “Match-ups”
- Ridiculously simple execution.
- Parlor tricks, and how easy they are to pick up.
- The gap between Beginner, Intermediate, Expert, Pro, and JPN
- Damage Scaling and the problems therein.
- Lack of reward for the “harder” characters to play/No way to play one character unless it’s Sagat. See also *Matchups.
I’ll be reviewing all of these as much as possible. Not all will be covered in this blog in particular, mostly because it will just take too long – but I want to speak from the heart and not just college essay style blogging. It’s difficult to talk about it because a lot of my friends love Street Fighter very much – they took me under their wings when I was picking the game up for the first time and I learned with them. To be honest, though, I’m already sick of the game. I’ve totally lost all hype I had for it. I even look down upon it now that I know the system well enough. The fact that I’ve picked up one of the hardest characters (Crimson Viper) in such a short amount of time, can do any “pro” link or string I can find after just a couple of tries (even though I know it’s not the same as doing them in a tournament or whatever, but it’s still a bit of a turnoff that it’s so incredibly easy to pull off). The execution is, again, simple as hell. If any of these players picked up Tekken and saw the amount of movement you need to survive all the time, they’d probably just shrug the game off like they were too good for it (I’ve seen it happen). I’m not even going to start on VF, a game that I don’t play seriously anymore only because of the lack of scene.
Because of the lack of simplicity Tekken and VF have, the mind games become deeper. It becomes more than a cute little game of rocks/paper/scissors, which is what I currently consider SF. I know that’s really harsh, but I used to think the same about Tekken when I first picked up VF. I know the mind games get extremely deep, and your knowledge of the system and each character’s specific moves can make SF incredibly complex, but the line between Intermediate and Pro just seems like it isn’t really that big. Learn a few tricks against a certain character, and be able to somewhat hit confirm a few things, and suddenly you’re an anti-(insert character name). I don’t know… It just doesn’t spark my fancy. In Tekken, you can pick any character, and the tier list isn’t determined by what special moves beat out the biggest amount of other characters’ special moves. It’s based upon the quality of their moves as a whole – meaning who has the widest range of tools. Who has good quick tracking moves to catch side-steppers, who has a safer launcher, does it launch crouchers, who’s moves stun on counterhit, do they have good wall carrying moves, do they wall splat, do they crush high, crush low, sabaki (or parry) punches or kicks, give a certain amount of frame advantage on block or on hit, set up for a free hit, slam down for a bound combo, and more. See how many things I named just now off the top of my head? All of those things are natural things we (3d players) have to worry about all the time. You need to know every single move in any particular opponent’s arsenal, and their attributes. You literally have to memorize the frame data of everyone’s moves – or at least the practical, most used ones. It may seem unrealistic, but you just memorize as you go – you ask questions when you get hit by something, try to react, and suddenly you’re getting juggled. That’s how you learn: Trial and Error.
To be fair, let’s look at some of the gripes Street Fighter players have on Tekken. First and foremost: the juggle system. Tekken is a game where certain moves called launchers have properties to send you into the air upon hit. This sets up for a succession of moves that, if performed correctly, put together a nice beefy little combo. These combinations can do anywhere from 20-45% of your life bar normally, depending on a vast array of variables. A lot of Street Fighter players get pissed at the idea that launchers are such an easy way to win. Perhaps at low to mid level play, this is true. However, at high-mid to high level play, Tekken is a game solely based upon pokes. First, though, let’s make a comparison; what is more boring? Launching an opponent into an involving combo that needs variation depending on the wall location, breakable ground location, and whether or not you want to initiate an okizeme mix up? Or scoring an ultra, which takes up just as much damage, but is free. Street Fighter players would argue: “But you don’t throw out random ultras!” This is true, but think about this for a moment. You can score an ultra from a safe, hit confirmable jab string! You will never see any damage this easy in Tekken. Every launcher in Tekken can either be punished hard, or is quite evadable in one way or another. There is a risk/reward system inplicated in every single move you do in Tekken. There is 0 risk of throwing out a jab string, realizing the string connected, then EX canceling out of a Shoryu into free Ultra damage. The only launcher in Tekken that you are allowed to complain about (other than Bryan’s taunt f~b+2, but you won’t have to worry about that until high level play) are Hop kicks. Hop kicks serve as launchers, and what are called crush moves. Hop kicks serve as low crushers, meaning that if you throw out a low move, and some crouching moves such as a low jab, the move will be crushed by the hopkick, and you will be launched. Hopkicks are still punishable, but the risk/reward factor is almost non-existant here. Of course, good players will almost always block random hopkicks, but there are always random moments in any game where shenanigans happen. I call this the “Shoryuken/DP(Dragon Punch)” of the game, because it is the biggest source of shenanigans in the entire game. Still, weigh that against Shoryukens, which can be EX canceled at any time as long as you have bar, and it just adds more inconsistency to the game mechanics, thus inspiring less solid play. In Tekken, you have to work for your damage through accurate spacing, poking, punishing, and throwing out launchers only when you’re certain they will land. If you’re satisfied with free safe strings into half life combos, then by all means go back to SF.
Continuing, every character has an average of … let’s say for simplicity’s sake, about 65 moves. That’s a lot of shit to memorize, considering there are about 40 characters in the game. But that’s what makes this fun. The amount of knowledge you have in the game and your ability to react and execute properly in accordance to that knowledge determines your skill level, not how many parlor tricks can you counter on reaction. It’s very execution-intensive, not that Street Fighter isn’t… I just think Street Fighter gives you too much time to think. Half of each match is either spent on the other side of the stage throwing fireballs to check your opponent, or in the middle of a bajillion frame throw-break animation, or spent half a screen appart dancing to what some people call “spacing” and “footsies”, but to me just looks like well-placed jumping or moving back and forward. It’s very boring to me after the first thousand matches or so. The block string system is pretty retarded. You use a combination of “one frame link” attacks that aren’t really one frame links to put imaginary pressure on your opponent, while the only thing to be feared is a tick into throw, or… wait, that’s the only thing to be feared. Pretty lame.
That leads me onto another subject that I will expand on more in one of my later submissions. Just Frames. This is a term originally used for an attack that has exactly a one frame window as your margin of error to execute an attack. Now, this may not sound that crazy, but let’s break it down a bit. Modern games run at 60fps (Frames Per Second) for the most part. Now, if you have one frame to execute an attack, that means you have 1/60th of a second. Yeah, now is it sinking in? I can’t name a single thing in Street Fighter that has that strict of a window to execute anything. MAYBE El Fuerte’s infinite, but even that might be double-tappable. The fact that double tapping even exists in a game means that just frames aren’t even possible. The rewarding things about True JF’s is you must execute perfectly, or your desired result does not occur, and often even backfires – so it’s a make or break situation. This means, if you miss your mark, you get no reward, and you’re often put at a disadvantageous situation because of it. Not in Street Fighter! If you miss the first tap, you can just tap that button again and it will register as a hit. RETARDED. This promotes zero execution proficiancy. You’re basically scrubbing it out all day. Can you tell people’s jabbering on this issue has caused me some irritation? Let’s move on…
I feel the only way I can really know what Street Fighter is about is to throw the “unique, fun, personalized” towel of the game in, and just say fuck it and pick up Sagat(aka God). Then, the real mind games can begin, because I’ll be playing against people with the same abilities – because anyone who wants to be really good, in the end, knows they have to either pick up Sagat or learn some really good anti-Sagat strats. I was pretty disappointed to hear one of the best players in New England, Nestor, dropped the idea that he and I shared, to be incredibly flashy C.Vipers who just say fuck it and rush down all day with crazy mix ups… basically like Makoto from 3S (my character as well, hehe) all to become another player in the much-adored Sagat Army. I suppose I can’t blame him. Viper’s game has too many holes. The amount of times you have to out-guess your opponent is far greater than the amount of times they have to out-guess you for the most part. Not even going to start on the balance issues – mostly because there will never be a fighting game without them.
My conclusion: Street Fighter is mad easy. I don’t like easy games. It gets boring, really quickly. People get frustrated for the wrong reasons in this game. It’s a game backed up by some of the scrubbiest of casual players in the fighting game world. Anybody can pick up Street Fighter. Anybody. Why don’t you challenge yourself, and TRY a 3d seriously? Or, stay in ignorance. It’s your choice. You will never know what it’s like to practice a True Just Frame for days – weeks, then finally nail it for the first time at a tournament and have the crowd go wild.
Get Hyped fellas… Tekken 6 is coming.
more coming soon…
-tekkurai
Great post! I hope more people do pick up Tekken with the upcoming release of T6 in October because it seems the scene is shrinking here in the states. This can be attributed both to the fall of the arcades and the decrease in popularity in fighting games. Hopefully with the release of Street Fighter IV it will revive the genre and be the “stepping stone” into games like Tekken.
I’ve been playing the Tekken series for nearly twelve years and I enjoy how I can learn something new not only with each new release, but over time with a single iteration. No one can completely master every character, and due to the depth of Tekken’s gameplay, some aspect of your play style can ALWAYS be improved upon. There is also a lot of variety of play for a single character. Not everyone plays each character the same, and this is something that SF lacks… The margin of variety is so minute compared to Tekken.
In Tekken, nothing is more exciting than when you and your opponent have only a sliver of life left, and each of you is dashing, backdashing, and sidestepping, searching for an opening and evading each other at the same time. In SF, these moments are rare and are often replaced by fireball spamming. I hate that fireballs damage on block because players will just slowly chip away at your opponent’s health by playing it “safe.” There isn’t any fun or excitement in that. I get bored when watching or playing SFIV matches that just turn into zoning battles in the end. It’s an anti-climatic way to end a fight.
In the ustream chat during the Devastation livestream, some troll asked, “If Tekken is so great why do they (I can’t remember who exactly entered the Tekken tourney but they usually main in SF) play Street Fighter?” I immediately responded, “because Tekken makes you better at Street Fighter.” The trolls exploded in fits of laughter but I quickly rephrased their question, “If Street Fighter is so great, then why do they play Tekken?” There was no response. I was either ignored or my question was simply covered in the word vomit of a chat room.
Thank you for the well thought out reply. I noticed the inconsistency in argument with the many Street Fighter players of the nation as well. It’s frustrating. Pretty much the only arguments they have are: “Tekken is all about launchers!” which is false, and “EVERYBODY plays Street Fighter!” which is true, but counter productive to mention. The fact that everybody plays Street Fighter means that, as I mentioned, anybody can play Street Fighter.
I originally picked it up as a sort of filler until Tekken comes out. In the meantime I am also playing Soul Calibur 4 quite seriously, am dabbling with BlazBlue (though I hear it’s terrible for a person like me who craves tight execution), and, because of the high amount of available competition, playing Street Fighter IV. This is the ONLY reason I am playing Street Fighter, and ironically the only reason I am not playing Virtua Fighter still. The scene really determines how exciting it is to play, unfortunately. If there is no competition, the “hype” isn’t there. Likewise, if there is an extreme amount of competition, it’s always exciting to some, no matter how bad and boring the game may be.
Moving back to the reasons 2ds can’t play 3ds but 3ds can easily pick up 2ds: the mind games one must play when playing 3d games are utterly difficult in comparison. The simplistic moving back and forward, throwing a move out, reset, next decision, reset, etc. allows many seconds to assess any given situation, and react to it in what seems like split second timing. However there is always a certain amount of outcomes in any given situation in Street Fighter, and it’s not that difficult to memorize each one. Since each character has maybe 20 moves, accounting for each normal attack in the air and on the ground, standing and crouching (which is generous), the amount of outcomes is dwarfed by the outcomes of Tekken. It is almost impossible to tell exactly what is going to happen next in a high level Tekken bout. It is almost impossible to not tell exactly what is going to happen in high level Street Fighter play.
The exceptions I must make to the apparent rule of “2d players are too lazy to step up to 3d games” are the Japanese – namely a friend of mine named Itabashi Zangief. He started out doing ST Gief, then moved to VF Shun. This is amazing in and of itself, but then again, the Japanese are amazing as well. I don’t want to hear gripes of “Hey I play SF but I can play Tekken!” because you probably can’t. The Street Fighter players (that is, the people who opt for Street Fighter over 3ds) will never be able to pick up a game as casually as 3d players pick up SF. Not unless they step up their games…
-tekkurai
Very nice read Ryan. Can’t wait to read more^^
I also agree entirely with this article. Way too many “same character” type players out there. When I was playing SFIV earlier, when I got it for my birthday, every 1/20 matches were someone who wasn’t Ryu, Sagat, or Ken. Hell, I figured there would be a lot of Gouken players because he is Ryu and Ken’s master, but hell, look at what happened at AB, so many Ryu’s and Ken’s.
I’m so glad I picked up BlazBlue. So far I haven’t encountered anything I dislike about the game, although I have only been playing for 3 hrs today, but hell, it is easy to pick up like SFIV, but at the same time, it gets very challenging later on.
I know it has been a few days, but I really put a lot of thought into what REALLY trigger these stubborn feelings of game bias; especially in regards to what we’ve been seeing with Tekken vs SFIV and other fighting games. This bias is triggered not necessarily by the game play and mechanics, but by a deeper emotion. Street Fighter II was the first fighter as we know it today and the arcade experience, along with other individual experiences such as playing the game with a loved one belong to the title.
These feelings of nostalgia are rekindled by SFIV and it’s a double edged sword to the fighting game community. On one hand, this nostalgia is bringing those who have not played a fighter since SFII or have fallen out of the community into “retirement” back out again. On the other hand, there is a lot of resentment and stubbornness triggered by this nostalgia. Sure fighting games are regaining their popularity, but some players have this faux superiority that games that do not have Street Fighter in the title are somehow inferior in make. As SF matured, it accumulated techniques that chased the casual players away, and some became intimidated by the Street Fighter name. Although SF began to fall in mass popularity, the Versus Series brought back casual love, and since SF characters had a presence, it kept the nostalgia warm within people’s hearts. Despite this, it became a common belief that SF was for the hardcore and the Versus Series was for everyone, although the casual took more of a liking to the vs games. I believe that Tekken has suffered from this same stigma. Virtua Fighter has been the community darling and the “less hardcore” have always taken a liking to Tekken instead. As a result Tekken has been deemed as a “poor man’s Virtua Fighter” or “button masher’s paradise.” As experienced Tekken players we know that this is not true. Tekken possesses its own merit though many in the community fail to see it due to their own bias.
As stated before in a previous comment, I’m not knocking SF or any other of the games mentioned. I have a genuine love for SF and other fighters, but Tekken is my number one love. Although I have my own bias, I do not let it cloud my judgment to play other games or even to learn them on a more technical level. I hope others; especially SF players learn to do the same. I’m not asking people to throw away the first time they threw their first haddoken. I’m pleading for them to realize just because something is not Street Fighter, it isn’t shit. Tekken is a fun game filled with its own hardcore mechanics and is easy for newbies to pick up. It deserves a chance to rid itself of its reputation.
I’ll be writing about this topic more in depth, and I’ll probably post it on some gaming sites around the net. Hopefully it will be finished later today. If not, then early tomorrow.
Good points made, but I think you’re over simplifying the strategy in Street Fighter and over exaggerating the strategy in Tekken. I’m too lazy to write anything here but I’d love to hear a high level Street Fighter players rebuttal to this.
Also, Street Fighter 4 is NOT competition to Tekken. The same way that Team Fortress 2 is NOT competition to Call of Duty. At the core they belong in the same genre, but they are two completely separate games.
Once you understand the basics of the genre you can begin to compete. When you have the basics covered, you can move on to mastering a specific game. Choosing which game to master though almost always comes down to what your friends are playing/how big the scene is in your area. As you stated, since the VF scene was dead/small in your area, you stopped playing that game. IMO, the only way to truly grow the Tekken scene is for people to get their friends to play the game and hope it starts a chain reaction. Tekken can sell itself. People will always have a preference for which game THEY THINK is funner. IMO, Tekken is funner, but for newbies it can be frustrating because of the learning curve. Thats what I hope the core of this site stays dedicated to.
Basically, explaining why Tekken is BETTER than Street Fighter (or any other fighting game) isn’t going to grow the scene, and its UNNECESSARY to grow the scene. Tekken is fun, and if people want to have fun, they’ll pick it up and get their friends to pick it up, because as you stated, they WILL get bored of SF4. Then they can come to IAMTEKKEN and learn what they need to know to get better at the game.
Well put Rip. I agree that I am totally simplifying Street Fighter and over-complicating Tekken, but the point that Tekken is not all about launchers had to be put firmly.
Any game can be incredibly deep when sat down and dissected. I am not arguing that it isn’t deep. I am not arguing that Tekken is at all better than Street Fighter. It is impractical to compare apples and oranges, because they are totally different. I originally wrote this article to respond to posts and opinions I have heard from 2d players all around who think their game is superior for reasons I still don’t know.
As you stated, SF is no competition to Tekken. Again, apples and oranges. I just happen to hear the oranges talk a lot of shit to the apples.. and think it needs to stop.
*most* launchers are punishable on block, or else duckable, slow, steppable, and/or only give juggle on CH. The problem with T6 Bob was that his d/f+2 had too many good properties… safe on block, crushed highs, launched on normal hit, and if you stepped it it was hard to launch because of his recovery (you had to predict, ss, launch instead of SS, react, launch). Fortunately they toned it down so it only launches on CH now.
Tekken is not a spam-happy game for the most part. One of the big differences is that there is nothing that is 100% safe except in certain situations. At even frames, every move can be ducked, ss’d, punished on block, or beaten because it is slow. You have to predict (or read) the opponent and cut off as many options of theirs as you can. There is nothing that is mid, 10 frames, and tracking in Tekken. Usually things that are fast, mid, and track a bit do very little damage on their own, but lead to more games and poking since they’ll put you at + frames on hit. The only except to nothing completely safe is if the opponent is at significant – frames after being hit or after something of theirs was blocked (even then it sometimes depends on the character).
In SF footsies, how many times are c.jab and c.short spammed. Can the be punished on block? No… low parried? no… correct me if I’m wrong (since I’ve played little SF4… Tekken’s far bigger here, in Korea), but focus attacks are two slow to eat and punish individual jabs, aren’t they? Or won’t they eat the next jab canceled into DP or something (or throw?).
The thing about Tekken that can make it daunting is, as you said, the learning curve. I think it’s important to get some friends playing each other, and instead of going around the whole cast picking randomly, have them get a grip on one character and learn how to fight their friend’s one character, including punishes and such. That will give a better feel for what the game’s about at depth instead of just hopping around characters randomly at first. Then they’ll have a better idea of what to look for when trying to find THEIR character.
This is not an easy game to get good at alone. You really need a community on this one. To be honest wish there was an online practice mode so you could train with your friends without having to visit them. The other nice thing about a community is that it cuts down on the trial and error that KuraiRyu mentioned. It’s nice when somebody can tell you that something is -13 and too far for jab retaliation instead of you trial and erroring it and getting owned in the face after blocked i14 punish or hopkicked from your whiffed jab punish.
I personally think each community needs a leader or some leaders. This is something that I was hoping to help with in Seattle since I’ve learned so much more about the game during this year, but I’m moving out to practically the middle of nowhere in Vermont for grad school.
The LUYG tourneys are a good idea, and it’s fantastic help to beginners if they can get captions put into their youtube vids like I saw from some of the Cali LUYG tourneys saying which string to low parry, what the punish is, etc.
Another nice thing is being shown/told the ins and outs and theory behind stuff for each character. I might submit something about this to MYK, but I’m doing a BIG-ASS Lee DVD that’s a guide showing the ins and outs of his game including juggles, punishes, wall game, etc. etc. I think it’d be awesome for new players (or even players like me with a solid grounding that are trying to pick up new characters… I only play a handfull somewhat well and have a very so-so Mokujin). It’d be great to get people from other characters making videos, too.
Anyway, good write KuraiRyu.
IMHO, the difference between high and low in Tekken is shown a lot differently than in SF. Tekken requires a lot more movement where SF is a lot of reaction and knowing safety by very small margins of spacing. I feel that it’s a lot easier to see the big difference between high and low level Tekken than it is to see the difference between high and low in SF games (I can see it, but I think a lot of newbs can’t comprehend that the little bit of spacing and baiting in SF for example makes so much difference… I played almost every SF installment in tourneys until 4, which I’m sure I’ll play a bit after returning stateside). A newb with ‘skillez’ might get execution for combos down, but have no clue what he’s doing in spacing or know when to attack, when to block and bait, etc. To be honest, there are similar players in Tekken who can juggle, but will never land a launcher to do that juggle. I guess what I’m saying is that, looking from the outside, it’s much easier to discern the scrub’s movement and play from the pro in Tekken since stuff isn’t safe and you can’t semi-finish a would-be combo into block string, as well as there being a greater difference in movement.
^ Good work, Mura! I bet it would be a definitive and comprehensive guide for BR Lee if you are working on it.
I will shortly send you a PM on TZ for some suggestions if you don’t mind taking them into consideration.
Okay you dont like sf4; fine, but you sound like and idiot, really stick to t6.
Please clarify what parts make him sound like an idiot? It seems to me that he has real, well thought out arguments of similar mechanics on both sides of the game.
It’s not that he dislikes SF4 also. He says it’s just boring.
I don’t think you should posting that kind of comment if you can’t even produce half a good argument as well as he has. Speaking of idiot, you don’t use semi-colons for comas, buddy.
Wow. Simply wow. I haven’t looked at the comments of this yet, but I truly feel what you’re arguing. I love the how you’ve compared one thing after another Tekken vs. Street Fighter wise, especially when it got into frames aka. Just Frames. When I read that part, I remembered when I started learning Lee back in Tekken 5 I was able to perform quite a wide range of combos, I had developed a very good mix up game, but I had the hardest time getting down his Mist Wolf Trap. HOLY CRAP! Just getting it down ONCE took me a few weeks.
I’m so glad you’ve made this. My mind just goes blank when I attempt to persuade people to play Tekken and they just give the “juggle” argument, but now I can just show them this. A well heart felt review and proper argument on why Tekken is much more than just juggles. On why Tekken requires much more skill than the simple Sagat scrub killer string D+Jab, D+Forward, Short Tiger Knee *repeat.* On why it’s not just footsies and being able to jump in at the “right/exact” time, but more in your ability in evading, side-stepping, spacing, mind-games and the occasional randomness.
I want to print this out and leave copies on every SF4 machine here in Hawaii haha!
I don’t think the part about just frames is right. Watching the recent Evo finals, Umehara used Ryu f+HP d+HP SRK a number of times. This is a one frame link. You literally have to hit the second input on frame 61, too early and nothing comes out, too late by one frame and it won’t combo. I can’t think of anything in Tekken that has that much gap between two inputs and still requires just frame timing. And this is a combo that Umehara is using in his match play.
Compare this to the Tekken system where you have a five frame buffer for combos. And, how many of Tekken JustFrames are actually 1 frame? EWGF yes, JFSR and OTGF yes. Any more? (Not rhetorical, drawing a blank).
Finally, the double tap is something that’s always puzzled me. For something like the above, there’s no way it’s going to help. I tried to test to see how many inputs can be done in a second, but was unsuccessful, however I completely doubt it’s going to be more than 5-10. Even with 10 taps per second, you’re still 6 frames apart, and likely will have abandoned any timing you had. I can’t believe this has any bearing on 1 frame links (some of the new techniques appearing on SRK involving input priority are a different matter).
There are plenty of things like that in Tekken. I’ll use Steve as an example. Steve’s punch parry into ff2, B! has a 16f window to hit a ff2 in time for it to combo. Do it too early and the ff motion won’t register and a f2 will come out, do it too late and they can techroll to avoid the ff2. ff2 on it’s own is 14f, but after the forward,forward+2 input the fastest you’ll ever get it to come out is 15f with a 1f input buffer during a block animation or a move animation (no idea where you got that 5f buffer for combo idea). So to put it in Street Fighter terms, it’s a “2 frame link.”
Doesn’t sound too hard in that sense, but people gotta keep in mind that the system for both games are different and in Tekken you can only buffer 1f (aka 1 direction) during a block or hit animation; and that it’s not just a one direction + a button we’re trying to link into afterwards. Such things as Kazuya’s CH df2, EWGF launch is a true just frame, aka 1 frame link, and yet you’ll see some players hitting this like Daigo hits f+hp, c.hp links. Imo, it’s all muscle memory at that point.
Oh just to clear up as well, EWGF is not a true just frame. Devil Jin/Kazuya have a 4f window from d,df+2 to get the EWGF version out, while Heihachi only has a 2f window between the d,df+2 input. EWGF being a 11f move, after input with a 1f buffer it’ll be 14f for a perfect EWGF. Since we have fnddf for the inputs, taking out the the first forward buffer we still have n,d,df so that’s +3f onto a 11f move, making it 14f. Kazuya is the only exception since he has a unique f,n mist step move which allows him to do crouch dash moves without having to do the down input. So he can do fndf+2 for a 13f EWGF, since the first forward is buffered, and n,df = 2f + the 11f EWGF making it a 13f EWGF.
The other thing that’s different from Tekken and Street Fighter’s buffer system is indeed how many input directions can be buffered during a block animation as well. I explained thoroughly how it’s only possible to buffer 1f in Tekken, or otherwise we’d be seeing 11f EWGF punishment in matches. In Street Fighter you can buffer a whole Super/Ultra motion during a block animation.
I’ll use Supers for example. Let’s take a look at Sagat’s Super, this move comes out in 2f (lk and mk version). There isn’t a single ‘NORMAL’ move that comes out in under 3f. Now let’s take a look at Ryu’s MK/HK Hurricane Kick (tatsu for short), on block this move is -2 (yes I know it doesn’t hit crouching opponents and what not, but this is just for the purpose of an example). So basically Sagat gets a free super after blocking either a MK or HK tatsu, so during the whole block animation you can buffer d,df,f,d,df,f that’s already a 6f input in Tekken terms which wouldn’t even be possible. Though in Street Fighter you can buffer several inputs and still get the move out in the allotted time, while in Tekken only 1 input is allowed and every other input after that = another frame.
This makes a huge difference, especially when trying to punish -14 moves with perfect EWGFs and what not, doing combos aren’t the only things that can be considered a “just frame,” block punishment can be as well.
So this pretty much gives people an idea on how different the buffer system in both games work.
The 5 frame buffer refers to what has been present in past Tekkens (and I’ll check when BR comes home, I would assume it’s still there) in that in the last 5 frames of recovery one direction and one input will be accepted and executed once recovery is complete. So to do the equivalent of the Ryu combo in Tekken would be much looser and easier to time (effectively a 5 frame link? perhaps).
Conversely to do the CH df+2 EWGF if it were in SF, presumably you could hit the f,N,d in recovery and then just add df+2 on the first frame post recovery.
Your post (and ending night shifts) helped to put things into perspective between the two games. Might go and have a look at how long you have to input directional motions in SF.
When MYK said that Kazuya’s d/f+2 EWGF was a “true justframe” he wasn’t kidding. You have to do the instant 13 frame version of his EWGF – so just f, d/f+2 perfectly. There is a one frame window for you to nail this notation, and YOU CAN NOT TAP TWICE. Meaning there is NO margin for error! You must be flawless every time. You also have little time to confirm not only whether or not the d/f+2 hit, but whether it was on clean or counter hit, confirm the crumple stun, THEN buffer in the perfect EWGF. Just thought I’d clarify.
There are other JF’s also such as:
Paul’s Demolition Man and Bone Crusher(?) f,f+2:1
Lee’s Mist Wolf Trap b+1:1:2 and his unblockable JF d+4:n+3,4
Heihachi’s Shoryu looking move f:d/f+1 (I don’t care what arguments come up with this one, the JF version is NOT performed similarly to EWGF)
As for the other “JF’s” as MYK stated, I can’t really think of any at the top of my head, but I know I come across them whether I’m doing them or if it’s being used against me. I’ll look out for them though next time.
Bambi, many of those do not have 1 frame windows. I was quite specific in my wording.
I put on practice mode and messed around, and was a little surprised. (T5DR PS3 with PStick). I was well aware that the df+2 portion of the EWGF post CH df+2 had to be exact but was surprised to find there’s no leeway for the f,N portion either. You can press f or hold F as early as you like, but you actually have to release the f on F48 and then press df+2 on F49. I had always assumed that given the input window starts at frame 42 you cold tap f at any time in that window then hit df+2 first frame post buffer window. (Normally you can tap f on F1, then input df+2 anywhere up to F17 and still get EWGF). Not entirely sure why this is an exception.
Also, tested the leeway on inputs for SF4 fireballs in recovery. Ryu d+HP on F1 (hold D), then can slide to df on F27 and press f+HP on F40 (which is the end of the recovery anyway) and still get a fireball.
They do have one frame windows. You can just mash them and perform them regularly without doing it JF and produce that attack normally making them totally unsafe. The JF versions I listed except for Lee’s JF unblockable give them better or different properties, usually making them totally safe and have a faster recovery time.
Pretty sure I was right and many don’t have one frame windows. Demo man doesn’t, f,f+2 doesn’t. Might go through all the JFs at some point. Hei OTGF and Hwo JFSR I’ve done, they definitely need to have df and button on the same frame.
Sorry, f28 not 27.
I do agree with most of your points, but disagree with what you say about the imbalance of the SF4 characters (specifically Sagat). In Tekken 6 BR, Steve and Law dominate moreso than Sagat who did not even enter into the top 8 of Evo 2k9. So Tekken 6 is actually more imbalance isn’t it?
Where does Law and Steve dominate? On the tier list? Law and Steve may be strong, but tier lists are just that. Tiers. Every character can win in Tekken, even in SF4. No difference here, except Tekken doesn’t really have big match-up issues like SF4. Besides this is one of the most balanced Tekken games out there, the gap between top tier and bottom tier is not that big.
But that’s mostly because certain moves like, for example, Blanka ball is safe vs. Ryu unless he has a super. While vs. Balrog, Rog will always get a dash punch after blocking/getting hit by a Blanka ball, free dmg vs no dmg could make a difference. So Rog could be a shitty match for Blanka.
Sagat is pretty damn buff in SF4. Just because no one placed top 8 with him at evo doesn’t necessarily mean he isn’t top. 1 tournament result isn’t going to have people saying “omg, Sagat sucks… he must be mid or low tier now.”
True, 1 tournament doesn’t prove anything and I agree that having imbalanced “matchups” leads to BS such as counter-picking (which makes characters such as Blanka completely inviable for tourneys).
But don’t you notice Law and Steve dominating tournaments and arcades much moreso than Sagat does?
could you please not refer to that polygonal disaster known as street fighter IV as “Street Fighter”? Thanks.
While yes, SF4 is the easiest SF game execution wise, it’s not as “easy” as you say. I can tell that you’re def. at a beginner level in SF since it’s pretty obvious that you can’t even appreciate the footsies involved which is absolutely no different than how it is in tekken (bait an attack, punish accordingly). If you really want to play a hardcore technical game, try cvs2. It’s possibly the most technical fighting game ever created. The footsie game is retardedly deep and that simple fact is what drives so many players away from the game since it’s so poke oriented.
You’re entitled to your own opinion but anyone can easily see you’re not too well educated on how SF is really played.
Interesting article. I’m an SF player and I can understand why you prefer Tekken over SF, I have no problem with it. I think it’s purely a matter of what you enjoy, and complex games can lead to complex situations in which it feels good to know that you figured it all out and countered it just perfectly.
SF is simpler, and it’s supposed to be. I personally think the best competitions are relatively simple. Look at basketball… limited moveset, limited ways to earn points, but it’s a great game.
I think SF is better because it’s a more playable game. You don’t have to study movesets and practice extremely complex move inputs for months just to be able to play the game.
There is much more focus on studying your opponent, reacting to his moves, and shutting down his offense, than there is on memorizing movelists and keeping yourself aware of 10 possible situations that could occur at any moment. It’s more of a 1-on-1 battle, and less of a contest of who has memorized more and reacts quicker to situations where only 1 of your 65 moves is the right choice.
I do agree that being able to mistime an attack in SF and just keep mashing the button in order to get extra chances is retarded though.
Great point.
……Sagat is top tier yes, but SF4 is not as imbalanced as you say it is. There are “match-ups” in this game, but just because Sagat may win a match up 6-4 it doesn’t automatically mean he wins all the time. If you look at past results in SF4 tournaments both Japan and US tournaments you’ll see that SF4 tournaments are not dominated by Sagat players, instead by a variety of characters.
And if you think SF or SF4 is rock, paper, scissors then you don’t know anything about SF. It isn’t a guessing game, and if you were playing it as a guessing game, no wonder you got bored of it.
Of course it doesn’t mean Sagat will win automatically. The whole basis behind the “best out of 10 game” scenario is exactly that.
The whole “theory” behind it is: If two players with the exact same skill level were to play each other in a race to 10 games using X/Y character, this is most likely to be the outcome. Of course Sagat isn’t 10-0 in any matchup, he just has no bad matchups. His worst matchup is even at 5-5 vs. certain characters. While some he’s at 6-4 and some even 7-3.
And could you elaborate on how SF4 is not a guessing game? Every fighting game turns into a “guessing” game when put in certain situations. This is like fighting games 101, basic mixups. It’s just how you avoid mixups and what not that differentiate between fighting games, of course this has to do with the unique system mechanics to each game itself.
This is primarily what I find is more intriguing concerning 3D fighters over 2D ones, although I certainly agree that a sport or game with a more universal context has greater public bearing and how translatable its on screen language is greatly aids it.
All fighting games do indeed devolve into a guess scenario, thats the basis behind nitaku, 50/50s, frame traps, virtually anything really, but what sets certain fighters, VF and Tekken among them apart from others in this regard is that you are guessing based on intricate detective work involving their play persona.
In VF you have to keep track of if a move is a mid, low, how many frames on startup, block, whether its half spin, full spin, has sabaki properties or rarer still invincibility frames at any certain interval, counter hit properties, etc. Because there is a more diverse range of options and each are bundled with intristic properties of their own, the ‘guess game’ becomes more akin to ‘detective work.’
Figuring out their gameplan on the fly in Tekken or VF is more akin to solving a murder case off of given clues you aren’t 100% sure on but have the more likelier incentives; rather than playing rock paper scissors. There are more variables and intricacies through which you can figure out ones motives, which is the work of lawyers and crime investigators. If you throw out a move thats crushed on counter hit relatively often and like to crouch? Expect launching mids, and intercept from there.
SF does allow you to similarly deduce gameplans but the focus is different at top level, wherein everyone has broken far away from pattern abuse or any simplistic mistake by which they are easily punished for. This is where the simplicity of the game truly shows its faults, as it becomes increasingly harder to find “concrete” clues of your opponents next move or inevitable plan, thus that counter active measure you will always want in a competition becomes more elusive.
I apologize if I sound arrogant or mayhaps a little long winded, but I was captivated by the original argument and although I do like SF, wanted express where I think it falters compared to 3D fighters.
You know, Im a big SF4 fan, but a couple of these comments I found pretty interesting. I see that some people complain about block strings, pokes that are safe, etc. And you know, I could totally see how that would turn you off. In fact, it turns me off to an extent. I guess thats why I use Dhalsim. I focus on other aspects of the game and try to avoid the up close pokes if possible. Im not that familiar with tekken, but Im sure it is a good game. I have no idea which game is ultimately better and deeper, but one thing that Tekken will NEVER have are characters as “cool” as the ones in SF. It may sound silly, but the usual suspects in SF are pretty cool. Nostalgia may be a part of it, but they really are brilliantly imagined characters. Blanka, Dhalsim, Balrog, Akuma, chun, etc. Personality and completely different fighting styles. The characters in 3d games just seem so drab and uninteresting. However, that ultimately doesn’t matter, but it may lead casuals to buying SF over Tekken, idk. Maybe I will check out Tekken 6 if there is a good online community.
Very good points and perspectives in the last few posts. I agree, it is totally about preference in the end. No game is better than the other when it comes down to it. It’s all about what you enjoy playing – and the mind games and execution requirements you prefer.
I learned something interesting about the SF system recently. The double tapping method, I believed, gave you two chances to land whatever button string you may be attempting. In actuality, however, inputs are locked in both when the button is pressed, and when it is let go – thus double tapping gives you 4x the chance of landing whatever you may be doing if done correctly. Very interesting indeed.
SiegCabbit, I was especially impressed by your post. It was a very good read.
Our shop has both SFIV & T6BR. I play SFIV and have many Tekken/SFIV players as friends. When we play each others’ games we comment on how much harder it is compared to our own. They can’t grasp SFIV as well as I and I can’t play Tekken as well as they. That said, I think certain systems appeal to certain types of players. Just because my SFIV friends can’t take a round off my Tekken friends doesn’t make them worse at fighting games and vice versa. I really think you cannot compare these games to each other or insult SFIV players by suggesting their game be used as a “Stepping stone” into Tekken. If SFIV was truly as easy you suggest I’d expect some of the top SFIV players in the world to be complete unknowns, which is obviously not the case. Nearly every professional level SFIV player has played something else at almost the same level.
Why don’t tekkurai challenge himself and play Virtua Fighter?
Bravo man you just shamed the entire SF4 scene and you did through proof.
Hey, i’m just getting into T6 now from playing SF4 at da arcades since it was released in 08. So far i’m loving it. At first i thought it was really easy and basic because my friends trained me up in practice mode, whereas they were pretty surprised on how good my excecution was. But then I noticed in-game, I couldnt defend or I didnt know what to punish/interupt, so they could pretty much abuse unsafe moves . Once I learn that sorta stuff I think i’ll be sweet.
You definately did dumb down SF4 and over complicate T6 though. Thats why i (at first) wanted to get into T6, to prove I will beast you at both games, then my oppinion will matter more, it’s the only way this argument can be fought i think. As your good at T6 but, you suck at sf4 (it’s obvious), and i’m the other way around, as I said earlier.